Close

User Tag List

Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 63
  1. #1
    Xyla95's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    NY 12472
    Posts
    1,194
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    10
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Deebs build consistancy check

    Deebs build
    • any block will work, 99+ are stiffer
      99 rods and pistons, pre-99 crank
      01+ lower block brace to stiffen things up
      valves are typically 91-93 flat faced version
      98 valve springs due to increased stiffness
      head isn't as important, stay away from 91 and 99+


    This basic combination netted 133 horsepower at the wheels, which translates to 145+ at the crank.

    Rod/Piston
    If I am not mistaken it raises the rod/stroke ratio and therefore reduces piston to cylinder friction and also a longer r/s ratio will decrease dwell, and decrease instantaneous piston speeds. That's what your after. High revs w/ less stress.. The only reason that the 99+ motors did not increase in power was due to more constrictive port design in the 3 gen heads. Stock pistons have oil ring issues, this can be remedied by drilling holes in the oil ring land, or buying aftermarket pistons with better oil control.

    The Crank
    The crank is pre-99 but also should be aware of 2 versions of that style crank, 91-92 and 93-98 generally the first crank is over looked due to a different CPS setup. The middle generation of crank is selected here because it has less counter weights than the 99+ crank and less drive train weight the quicker revving the engine will be.

    Valve Train
    The 91-93 valves are flat faced, using these valves with the 99 pistons creates a increase in compression to approximately 9.75:1.(+.25:1) The 98+ valve springs are the stiffest. All valves purchased new from Saturn will be the higher spring rate.

    Head
    The 91 head is bad news don't torture yourself with it, otherwise its just pick a 92-98 big port. That group is split in to two major groups and must match harness and ECU to head, 92-94 vacuum EGR, and 95-98 Linear (electronic) EGR. 95 is an odd one out, 2 ECTSs. The head can also be milled to further increase the compression ratio. NOTE: decking the head causes the exhaust cam to become retarded due to the shorter distance between the crank and cam gears.
    • .010" gets approximately 10:1
      .020" gets approximately 10.25:1
      .030" gets approximately 10.5:1
      .040" gets approximately 10.75:1


    I'd just like to be sure I have my facts straight please correct as necessary.
    Last edited by Xyla95; 03-12-2011 at 12:39 PM.

    -Walker - 2006 Volvo V70R
    1995 SC2 - Killing me slowly -

  2. #2
    6S Moderator S.Bretz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Lutz, Fl
    Posts
    15,283
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    27 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Re: Deebs build consistancy check

    ANy 'new' set of valve springs that you buy from the dealer will be the stiffer ones. They sping rate was increased in 98 to help break-up carbon build up, the part number was revised so that all new springs (from the dealer) are the stiffer ones.
    -6S Resident Mechanical Forensics member #001.
    1995 SC2 Turbo 3.6L DOHC, 6sp manual, Ford 8.8 rearend running on MS3x.
    1998 F-250 5.4L triton...stock.

  3. #3
    Xyla95's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    NY 12472
    Posts
    1,194
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    10
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Re: Deebs build consistancy check

    Edited to reflect spring info.
    Any thing else I don't have right?
    thanks

    -Walker - 2006 Volvo V70R
    1995 SC2 - Killing me slowly -

  4. #4
    HNIC SC2Sick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    St. Paul, Minnesota
    Posts
    11,127
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    4
    Mentioned
    39 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Re: Deebs build consistancy check

    looks like you've got it. I would use the 95 head so that you have the extra coolant temp port already since your electronics are 95 and require it.
    Sixthsphere.com Owner
    2016 Honda Fit
    2003 BMW e46
    2001 Saturn SC2 - Forged with everything but boost - FOR SALE PM FOR MORE INFO
    1998 Ford Ranger

  5. #5
    6S Moderator S.Bretz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Lutz, Fl
    Posts
    15,283
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    27 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Re: Deebs build consistancy check

    In terms of a junkyard engine, the info is correct.
    But if you go to a dealer to get new springs, you don't have to specify 98 springs since all DOHC's with the non-roller cams get the revised part.
    -6S Resident Mechanical Forensics member #001.
    1995 SC2 Turbo 3.6L DOHC, 6sp manual, Ford 8.8 rearend running on MS3x.
    1998 F-250 5.4L triton...stock.

  6. #6
    Get off my lawn.
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Winston Salem, NC
    Posts
    8,362
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    20 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Re: Deebs build consistancy check

    Quote Originally Posted by Xyla95
    Rod/Piston
    If I am not mistaken it raises the rod/stroke ratio and therefore reduces piston to cylinder friction and also increases "dwelling" at the top and bottom of the stroke witch lead to better intake and scavenging. The only reason that the 99+ motors did not increase in power was due to more constrictive port design in the 3 gen heads.
    I thought this sounded wrong, so I pulled up cad just to make sure. A longer rod with the same stroke will decrease dwell, and decrease instantaneous piston speeds. That's what your after. High revs w/ less stress.

  7. #7
    Xyla95's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    NY 12472
    Posts
    1,194
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    10
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Re: Deebs build consistancy check

    Thanks for the info, My source must have been mistaken. That makes more sense now that I think about it.

    *edited*

    -Walker - 2006 Volvo V70R
    1995 SC2 - Killing me slowly -

  8. #8

    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    132
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Re: Deebs build consistancy check

    I have a deebs build motor in my 2001 right now .....it is a 98 head and 2001ecu and runs good with the 01 ecu......the ecu just needs to be swapped out to meet the egr requirements right? and if that is the case (i think it is) you could just get a block off plate for the egr instead of spending more on the ecu. of course the wiring to tps and MAP need to be modified but i did mine successfully and have not had a problem yet
    Saturnless!!

  9. #9

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    867
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Re: Deebs build consistancy check

    I believe that the compression numbers for head decking are off, maybe they are with the flat faced valves?

    I recall reading that a 0.030" mill will take the CR up to 10.0:1.
    2005 Toyota Echo - the daily... that's raced

  10. #10
    Xyla95's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    NY 12472
    Posts
    1,194
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    10
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Re: Deebs build consistancy check

    Quote Originally Posted by thatssatanscar
    Of course the wiring to TPS and MAP need to be modified but i did mine successfully and have not had a problem yet
    Can I get the specifics on this procedure? Maybe a write up?

    Perhaps someone with a little more experience with decking vs. comp ratio will chime in and give us the details. in truth the numbers I have there dont add up, a .5 increase from 0 - .010 then only .25 per .010 after that? that is illogical.

    -Walker - 2006 Volvo V70R
    1995 SC2 - Killing me slowly -

  11. #11
    Jon2001sc2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Daytona Beach
    Posts
    1,675
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Re: Deebs build consistancy check

    Quote Originally Posted by thatssatanscar
    I have a deebs build motor in my 2001 right now .....it is a 98 head and 2001ecu and runs good with the 01 ecu......the ecu just needs to be swapped out to meet the egr requirements right? and if that is the case (i think it is) you could just get a block off plate for the egr instead of spending more on the ecu. of course the wiring to tps and MAP need to be modified but i did mine successfully and have not had a problem yet
    When you say the ecu needs to be swapped out what did you think needed to be swapped in?
    Jonathan
    Just a guy with a thing for tubeframes and motorswaps...
    Saturns, I have them, too many of them actually

  12. #12

    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    754
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Re: Deebs build consistancy check

    Quote Originally Posted by Xyla95
    Head
    The 91 head is bad news don't torture yourself with it, otherwise its just pick a 92-98 big port. They are split in to two groups and must match harness and ECU to head, 92-94 vacuum EGR, and 95-98 Linear (electronic) EGR. two and a half, 95 is an odd one out, 2 ECTSs
    Just wanted to point out that the 92-94 heads can be used with 95-98 harness and PCM if you use the EGR adaptor from a '94 Cali Emissions DOHC. One of my '95s currently has a '93 engine with the adaptor. Broadens your options if you run across a P&P 92-94 head for sale.
    95 SL2m, my first Saturn and perpetual project car, running mutt engine during project engine build<br />95 SL2a, thinking about an MP3 swap, 150 miles/quart of oil<br />95 SL1a, turned DOHC, 50 miles/quart of oil, doing it all again the right way.

  13. #13

    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    132
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Re: Deebs build consistancy check

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon2001sc2
    Quote Originally Posted by thatssatanscar
    I have a deebs build motor in my 2001 right now .....it is a 98 head and 2001ecu and runs good with the 01 ecu......the ecu just needs to be swapped out to meet the egr requirements right? and if that is the case (i think it is) you could just get a block off plate for the egr instead of spending more on the ecu. of course the wiring to tps and MAP need to be modified but i did mine successfully and have not had a problem yet
    When you say the ecu needs to be swapped out what did you think needed to be swapped in?

    I was sayin that if you wanted to run a head that had the vaacuum egr and you did not want a code thrown (on an ecu with linear of course) then you would have to swap to that specific year....(at least thats wat I think) But i definitely support the block off plate over this just for sake of saving money .....please lemme know if im mistaken.....like I said I have the 98 and its the linear valve anyway...so i havent messed with the vaccum egr....just trying to use my educated opinion i guess...................
    Saturnless!!

  14. #14

    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    132
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Re: Deebs build consistancy check

    Quote Originally Posted by Xyla95
    Quote Originally Posted by thatssatanscar
    Of course the wiring to TPS and MAP need to be modified but i did mine successfully and have not had a problem yet
    Can I get the specifics on this procedure? Maybe a write up?

    Perhaps someone with a little more experience with decking vs. comp ratio will chime in and give us the details. in truth the numbers I have there dont add up, a .5 increase from 0 - .010 then only .25 per .010 after that? that is illogical.

    Ill get on that write up for ya ASAP......pretty easy stuff just cutting splicing and or soldering involved.....
    Saturnless!!

  15. #15
    Jon2001sc2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Daytona Beach
    Posts
    1,675
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Re: Deebs build consistancy check

    Quote Originally Posted by thatssatanscar
    Quote Originally Posted by Jon2001sc2
    Quote Originally Posted by thatssatanscar
    I have a deebs build motor in my 2001 right now .....it is a 98 head and 2001ecu and runs good with the 01 ecu......the ecu just needs to be swapped out to meet the egr requirements right? and if that is the case (i think it is) you could just get a block off plate for the egr instead of spending more on the ecu. of course the wiring to tps and MAP need to be modified but i did mine successfully and have not had a problem yet
    When you say the ecu needs to be swapped out what did you think needed to be swapped in?

    I was sayin that if you wanted to run a head that had the vaacuum egr and you did not want a code thrown (on an ecu with linear of course) then you would have to swap to that specific year....(at least thats wat I think) But i definitely support the block off plate over this just for sake of saving money .....please lemme know if im mistaken.....like I said I have the 98 and its the linear valve anyway...so i havent messed with the vaccum egr....just trying to use my educated opinion i guess...................
    There is an adapter plate to convert from vacuum egr heads to use the linear egr with the newer computers. I'm not sure off hand on the exact part number but I know Mike (lowsaturn) has a number of them he has stockpiled over the years. My problem with the older heads and the 01 pcm has always been an emissions code for the air system being removed.
    Jonathan
    Just a guy with a thing for tubeframes and motorswaps...
    Saturns, I have them, too many of them actually

  16. #16
    Xyla95's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    NY 12472
    Posts
    1,194
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    10
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Re: Deebs build consistancy check

    Is there any benefit to running a newer pcm over the older ones, say 95-98 I'll likely switch to a 96-98 head so my question is do I have to swap the engine harness to match the new head and pcm or can I just leave the extra connector "dangling"

    -Walker - 2006 Volvo V70R
    1995 SC2 - Killing me slowly -

  17. #17

    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    318
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Re: Deebs build consistancy check

    This is nice. I have been reading up on this deebs build all night and I had allready planned a head up rebuild to DOHC so now I think I am going to shoot for a deebs build.

    Any and all info would be appreciated.

  18. #18
    Xyla95's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    NY 12472
    Posts
    1,194
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    10
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Re: Deebs build consistancy check

    That is what I'm looking to do here, collect the correct info regarding this build.
    I've been editing the first post to reflect all the changes I've received.
    Any senior members with experience with this build could you check my info over and correct me where necessary?
    I think my compression ratio/decking is off, but what are the correct numbers?

    -Walker - 2006 Volvo V70R
    1995 SC2 - Killing me slowly -

  19. #19

    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    132
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Re: Deebs build consistancy check

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon2001sc2
    Quote Originally Posted by thatssatanscar
    Quote Originally Posted by Jon2001sc2
    Quote Originally Posted by thatssatanscar
    I have a deebs build motor in my 2001 right now .....it is a 98 head and 2001ecu and runs good with the 01 ecu......the ecu just needs to be swapped out to meet the egr requirements right? and if that is the case (i think it is) you could just get a block off plate for the egr instead of spending more on the ecu. of course the wiring to tps and MAP need to be modified but i did mine successfully and have not had a problem yet
    When you say the ecu needs to be swapped out what did you think needed to be swapped in?

    I was sayin that if you wanted to run a head that had the vaacuum egr and you did not want a code thrown (on an ecu with linear of course) then you would have to swap to that specific year....(at least thats wat I think) But i definitely support the block off plate over this just for sake of saving money .....please lemme know if im mistaken.....like I said I have the 98 and its the linear valve anyway...so i havent messed with the vaccum egr....just trying to use my educated opinion i guess...................
    There is an adapter plate to convert from vacuum egr heads to use the linear egr with the newer computers. I'm not sure off hand on the exact part number but I know Mike (lowsaturn) has a number of them he has stockpiled over the years. My problem with the older heads and the 01 pcm has always been an emissions code for the air system being removed.
    yup you are correct i completely forgot about about that air injection code.....doesnt bother me to much though the check engine light has been on since the day I got the car lol.....i should probably just pull the bulb out or just get the megasquirt that I have been puttin off for the past couple months....
    Saturnless!!

  20. #20

    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    1,296
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Re: Deebs build consistancy check

    Quote Originally Posted by Viperoni
    I believe that the compression numbers for head decking are off, maybe they are with the flat faced valves?

    I recall reading that a 0.030" mill will take the CR up to 10.0:1.

    The exhaust cam gets retarded slight too.

    You might consider doing the twin intake cam on this engine or spending the money for a pair of sda street/power cams, an safc or other piggyback, and a wb02. All except for the sda cams can be had for fairly cheap in the F/S right now. With the other bolt-on's your about at the peak of ability before moving up into a better fmu or terdbo/nitrous.


    Although I wouldn't hesitate to put a wet 50 on that motor with the right tune, post all the other upgrades.
    [quote author="shortbus"]Stage 2 is great. Its covered by warranty, better fuel economy, the eaton screams louder so deer wont jump onto the road, it makes girls get wet, and the emissions produced will not kill songbirds or melt glaciers.[/quote]<br />[quote author="retardpartol"]...who is sober and noton any kind of intoxication whether is be ibuprophin[/quote]<br />LSJ phun

Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •