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  1. #1

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    apexi SAFC help.

    looking to put an apexi SAFC in my car to get my foot into tuning since i have little to no experience with. but looking at it, it would seem that it is almost the same price as a MS if i want to get a NEO or SAFC II, is there a huge difference between the two? to my understanding MS does fuel and ignition timing, while the apexi SAFC does only fuel management. any advice would be useful, wanted to go full standalone but decided it may be best to start small and work my way up to that as far as tuning goes.

  2. #2
    Approved Vendor ZombieSatty's Avatar
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    An safc is what 150? You can't get a working MS instslled for the first time for that.

    Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk
    It's not my fault, blame the radiation.

  3. #3

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    http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/3321732...&ul_noapp=true this is the cheapest one i could find out there and its just the normal apexi SAFC do they have much difference between them? its just about as cheap as i can find, is it okay if its one of the vtec compatible ones? also i know an MS system runs abotu 5-600 to get and install but if im only ognna be 1-200 off i feel i might as well bump it up

  4. #4
    Approved Vendor ZombieSatty's Avatar
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    Wow that's gone up in price. There must be newer stuff on the market by now that's cheaper.

    Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk
    It's not my fault, blame the radiation.

  5. #5

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    probably but id rather the tried and proven you know? i dont want to spend 100 dollars on 3 resitors that claim power and tuneability. so im willing to pay the bit of extra to grab this one if it isnt worth going up to the ms. it should also be known that i have the ability to change timing through the fidanza timing gears.

  6. #6
    siris's Avatar
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    Safc skews your map voltage, causing the pcm to pull fuel and add timing. Great for NA. Bad for bewst.

    You can get similar results with a 4.6v zener diode and a 10k resistor connected from the map sensor return line and the map ground wire. Costs less than $5.

    That pulls roughly 12% fuel bringing the stock 10.8:1 WOT to around 12.5:1 and adds 3-4 degrees of timing. Just make sure you run premium, or it will knock.

    Aem fic 6 will work with obd1 and retard timing. Obd2 will be fuel only, no timing retard.
    @importsdontlikeme is your best bet if you don't want to run a Megasquirt. He is an authorized tec2 dealer.

    Megasquirt is the most beaten path, and you can almost be spoon-fed how to install and get it running.

    My advice:
    Don't waste money on a safc.
    Get a wideband sensor.
    Invest a few hours a week researching how to do what you desire before spending any money.
    72 Charger: pissed me off, on jackstands.
    95 SW1m: Dohc swap. DD. I can haz boost?

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by siris View Post
    Safc skews your map voltage, causing the pcm to pull fuel and add timing. Great for NA. Bad for bewst.

    You can get similar results with a 4.6v zener diode and a 10k resistor connected from the map sensor return line and the map ground wire. Costs less than $5.

    That pulls roughly 12% fuel bringing the stock 10.8:1 WOT to around 12.5:1 and adds 3-4 degrees of timing. Just make sure you run premium, or it will knock.

    Aem fic 6 will work with obd1 and retard timing. Obd2 will be fuel only, no timing retard.
    @importsdontlikeme is your best bet if you don't want to run a Megasquirt. He is an authorized tec2 dealer.

    Megasquirt is the most beaten path, and you can almost be spoon-fed how to install and get it running.

    My advice:
    Don't waste money on a safc.
    Get a wideband sensor.
    Invest a few hours a week researching how to do what you desire before spending any money.
    reading up on the SAFC i saw about the diodes although i didnt research them aswell that is helpful to know, do you know the HP gain on that at all im assuming minimal something like ~5hp at most. im trying to keep the car N/A and i am gonna put cams in that's why i kinda wanted the SAFC because then i could run them. atleast that was the thought in my head was that i could do timing through the gears and fuel though that and be able to get them set up. i was looking to get a tec2 but don't want to go full dive without any experience unless it wont really make a difference, and wideband was a given no matter what i do i was just looking to get opinions on this, better thread name might have been something to do with choosing control systems but i was looking at the SAFC more than anything currently so i ended up putting that.

  8. #8
    siris's Avatar
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    The tec from my understanding, has great software. Easy to learn.

    Getting you feet wet with the safc will not translate too the tec. Only the tuning theory will remain.

    Crash course.

    Catalyst cars, I.e. cars with a catalytic converter don't like running leaner than 14.7-15 or richer than 11.5 for extended periods of time.
    Too lean the cat doesn't heat up, and burn off the extra hydrocarbons. And too rich they burn too hot.

    Best fuel economy will come leaner than 15:1 but your power falls off, and knock can increase. You also produce more Nox.

    Best NA power comes around 12.5:1 and these hemi combustion chambers like a little more timing.

    The richer the mix within reason I.e. 11:1, the more knock resistance you will have, the fuel takes the latent heat from the combustion chamber, and cools hotspots than can cuase preignition. That's why turbo cars run a richer mix.

    However rich mixes drive up exhaust temps, and can cook turbo's and rare occasions cook an exhaust manifold.

    Spark tuning is harder to get right, but our community has compiled a stock spark map so you just have to copypasta, and should be in the ballpark.
    72 Charger: pissed me off, on jackstands.
    95 SW1m: Dohc swap. DD. I can haz boost?

  9. #9

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    So essentially it will be tuning the fuel to run that 12.5:1ish air fuel ratio which shouldn't be to hard with a wide band installed as long as I can get something in it base to start of and tune from, it would basically Just be a matter of adding / pulling fuel from the fuel map until I hit that sweet spot?

  10. #10
    siris's Avatar
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    Pretty much.
    72 Charger: pissed me off, on jackstands.
    95 SW1m: Dohc swap. DD. I can haz boost?

  11. #11
    siris's Avatar
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    72 Charger: pissed me off, on jackstands.
    95 SW1m: Dohc swap. DD. I can haz boost?

  12. #12
    siris's Avatar
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    This one has a bit more in-depth borderline Mechanical Engineer stuffs.

    http://www.megamanual.com/begintuning.htm
    72 Charger: pissed me off, on jackstands.
    95 SW1m: Dohc swap. DD. I can haz boost?

  13. #13
    Resident Electromotive Expert importsdontlikeme's Avatar
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    I'm not sure the SAFC can handle those cams you have. MS would be a minimum for those gudes.

    With MS and the TEC systems you'll be tuning from scratch but you should be able to get a base map from the guys on here if you go MS. Electromotive spits out a base map for you when you set up your bin file.


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    Interested in a solid engine management system? Ask me about Electromotive engine management.

  14. #14

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    2 things:

    1) I dont trust our spark map on this site at all. It is hella advanced, by like 20 in some places.

    2) I had an SAFC for years. It was a neat tool for looking at RPMS and stuff, but you cant lean it out enough to make a difference IMO +/- "30%", even -30% I couldnt get to 12.5 WOT 6500rpm. It fun to mess with, but it isnt exactly useful. I would never mess with one again. I did however do the resistor/pot thing back in HS and that was fun, because you could literally make the motor die because you had so much influence. Promptly took it out, 1 setting doesnt cover all RPMs, obviously, good at WOT sucked at idle, good idle, rich at WOT.

    In my suggestion, EMS or bust. MS has the most user base here, Electromotive has the strongest sales person here; pick your poison. Each have pros and cons.

    My build is running a microsquirt, on LS coils; for example. Sky is the limit

  15. #15
    siris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arthursc2 View Post
    2 things:

    1) I dont trust our spark map on this site at all. It is hella advanced, by like 20 in some places.
    http://www.sixthsphere.com/showthread.php?p=1168738

    The one emailer33 pulled from the OBD1 PCM? That's direct from Saturn, unless he got the equation wrong. When I was tuning my wagon with the fic6 and datalogging the OBD1 PCM his spark map matched up to my datalogs within a few degrees.
    72 Charger: pissed me off, on jackstands.
    95 SW1m: Dohc swap. DD. I can haz boost?

  16. #16

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    how did you log the oem spark output?

  17. #17
    siris's Avatar
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    Aldl cable and efilive.
    72 Charger: pissed me off, on jackstands.
    95 SW1m: Dohc swap. DD. I can haz boost?

  18. #18

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    hmmmmmmmmmm. Something you said still doesnt sit well with me however. You said "it matched up within a few degrees." Ask around, and you will see that tuners agree with me when I say that a few degrees is all it takes to pop a motor.

    We have a 717hp B Series drag car, it runs ~22 at 7500rpm on 36psi.

    But the stock spark table wants to tell me we are at 40 and some change at like 6000?

    Not buying it.

    My 477 Tahoe was like 18 at 6600.

    I am 100%, and will always be convinced that the stock spark table is too far advanced. We dont idle at 20 like the table suggests. at least, the table I downloaded as "stock spark" in 2008.

  19. #19
    Resident Electromotive Expert importsdontlikeme's Avatar
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    20* at idle holy crap that's a lot. Every car I have plugged into idles around 8-10*


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  20. #20
    HNIC SC2Sick's Avatar
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    Maybe they aren't factoring in the factory 10* in the OBD1 map?

    https://sixthsphere.com/forumdisplay...Tuning-Library

    Please contribute here if you can.
    Sixthsphere.com Owner
    2016 Honda Fit
    2002 Saturn SL1 - RHD
    2002 GMC Sierra 2500HD Duramax

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