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  1. #1
    Lord Freely's Avatar
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    It's over 9,000! ('02 SC2)

    A random question for anyone with the knowledge. I would like to know the maxium whp potential for a NA LLO S-Series engine. I plan on turning my slow turd into a respectable street car/dd. I want to keep it naturally aspirated for reliability reasons. I never plan on taking this thing to the track, but I would like more power for long trips through twisted mountain roads. What would be the best (subjective I know) tune I could get out my lil' NA 1.9L DOHC. I will appreciate any help for a basic idea of where to begin. Thanks.

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  2. #2
    siris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Freely View Post
    A random question for anyone with the knowledge. I would like to know the maxium whp potential for a NA LLO S-Series engine. I plan on turning my slow turd into a respectable street car/dd. I want to keep it naturally aspirated for reliability reasons. I never plan on taking this thing to the track, but I would like more power for long trips through twisted mountain roads. What would be the best (subjective I know) tune I could get out my lil' NA 1.9L DOHC. I will appreciate any help for a basic idea of where to begin. Thanks.

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    People have spent thousands on them as far as I know no one has broken 200hp na.

    With some decent parts you could be around 150.
    72 Charger: pissed me off, on jackstands.
    95 SW1m: Dohc swap. DD. I can haz boost?

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  4. #3
    Get off my lawn.
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    +1 150ish

  5. #4
    Lord Freely's Avatar
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    160 - 200hp is my goal. That is plenty of power IMO. I plan on shedding weight where I can, though this car is fairly light already. I care more about acceleration than just raw power. When I save up some dough I will make a new thread to keep anyone who cares up to date on what's being done to it. A complete engine overhaul will ensue when I get the time and resources. I'm pretty excited for the whole thing, for now though I'm going to do my homework. I know Saturn doesn't have a strong aftermarket, but if anyone has some sources for where I can get some rare parts I would appreciate it.

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  6. #5
    Resident Electromotive Expert importsdontlikeme's Avatar
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    If you want to make over 150 you'll need to go big and high compression.

    The money involved to do that you're better off going turbo.

    Maybe one day I'll give it a try but I think a big bore motor with appropriate compression would knock on the 200hp door.

    This biggest thing with N/A for me is 4cyl cars sound like angry bees for the most part. Turbos make the exhaust note much more pleasant.


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  7. #6
    siris's Avatar
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    Here is a more in depth look at it. I posted this a while back.



    Quote Originally Posted by siris View Post
    Here is a long ass post, that will hopefully clarify why we have never seen a 200hp LLO, and will likely never see one.

    Every engine has a Brake Mean Effective Pressure.

    You can read more about it here
    http://www.epi-eng.com/piston_engine..._yardstick.htm

    Stock engine has a BMEP of 8.9
    150.8*(124hp*5252/6500rpm)/116ci=130psi
    130psi/14.6=8.9bar
    Now, all that being said, most naturally aspirated engines don't get above 10.5bar or 153psi on a side note, Nascar engines are achieving a BMEP of 15.6bar or 226psi the Honda S2000 f20c has a BMEP of 13.6bar or 193psi.

    So assuming you can build an engine with a BMEP of 11bar or 160psi, which would require a set of cams with an intake manifold tuned to match the cam, tuned length header, professionally ported head, you would have to achieve a volumectric efficiency over 110%, the f20c in the s2000 has a VE of 112% btw.

    So assuming you get a BMEP of 11:
    150.8*(200hp*5252/8534rpm)/116ci=160psi

    At 8535rpm you have piston speeds over 5000fpm. Formula one cars redline to 18,000rpm, and have piston speeds around 4800fpm.
    72 Charger: pissed me off, on jackstands.
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  8. #7
    Lord Freely's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by siris View Post
    Here is a more in depth look at it. I posted this a while back.
    So what your saying is, think... a lot smaller. I don't know anything really about engine tuning, so I'll take your word for it. I needed this kind of revelation. I will switch to forced induction. No real point in spending big bucks to make an NA engine "decent". I'm sure as long as I do everything correctly and take all necessary precautions I can get my LLO to perform pretty damn well. This is going to take a lot time, money and effort, but it will turn out great if I do it the right way. SixthSphere will be an essential part of making this thing happen. So thanks for giving me a new insight on how to get stuff done.

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  9. #8
    Get off my lawn.
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    I'm less skeptical. 160whp can be made. Maybe 170. But you'll have to pay $$$ for a custom intake manifold, TB, etc. Good cams, headwork, tuning and an open exhaust should get you there. By the time you've paid for all of that, you could throw cheap boost at the car and make more power.

    The number of people who have truly pushed an NA turd motor and posted results online can be counted on one hand with fingers left over.

  10. #9
    Resident Electromotive Expert importsdontlikeme's Avatar
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    For what it's worth a number of years ago at the dragon my coupe with 8.5-1 compression and the 2.2 L motor was keeping up with the wagon when it still belonged to Joe and he was running 7psi. I firmly believe that with the GE block and a nasty overbore like 90 mm pistons 200 wheel horsepower could be achieved with appropriate head work cams intake and exhaust and obviously tuning.

    All that being said you can make 200+ on a completely stock block with 7-11psi reliably. The wagon did it for 4+ years.


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  12. #10
    Lord Freely's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ProDarwin View Post
    I'm less skeptical. 160whp can be made. Maybe 170. But you'll have to pay $$$ for a custom intake manifold, TB, etc. Good cams, headwork, tuning and an open exhaust should get you there. By the time you've paid for all of that, you could throw cheap boost at the car and make more power.

    The number of people who have truly pushed an NA turd motor and posted results online can be counted on one hand with fingers left over.
    Money is no option for me. I love this car, the body lines alone are motivation enough for me. Though it will take me a while to save for this build it will get done. I just need to hone my money management skills; While I do that, I will talk to many other Saturn owners (my uncle included) and look for shops that will be able to give me what I need. Once I have my parts all that will be left is to put it all together and enjoy it. With the engine out of the way I will upgrade the transmission, improve the suspension and put on some minor asthetic touch ups. After all that, boom, project car complete.

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  13. #11
    lilcraigford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by importsdontlikeme View Post
    For what it's worth a number of years ago at the dragon my coupe with 8.5-1 compression and the 2.2 L motor was keeping up with the [turbo] wagon when it still belonged to Joe and he was running 7psi. I firmly believe that with the GE block and a nasty overbore like 90 mm pistons 200 wheel horsepower could be achieved with appropriate head work cams intake and exhaust and obviously tuning.

    All that being said you can make 200+ on a completely stock block with 7-11psi reliably. The wagon did it for 4+ years.


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    I can vouch for this. I took shotgun in the wagon for one run down the dragon and was astonished at how effortlessly the coupe held (and sometimes exceeded) Joe's pace. That 2.2L motor simply ripped!

    About 10 or so years ago there was a 1G SW2 running the US Touring Car Championship, owned by Dennis Short/D&N Motorsports. That car is said to have hit 200+ N/A hp but, if I remember correctly, the motor wasn't exactly streetable.
    '94 SL2: The Detail Junky (Will it ever run? Does it even exist?)
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  15. #12
    Jon2001sc2's Avatar
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    Dennis Short was making around 205-215 as I recall but that was with a motec on a dedicated race build (read high strung and temperamental, not something that will fire up and run every single day of the week rain or shine, snow or heat). It has been a number of years since I last spoke with him so I can't quite remember if that HP figure was at the crank when Mark Womack built it and ran it in on his engine dyno or if that was an at the wheels figure. With our last ITA motor we never dynoed it but it was a good deal stronger than the former 155whp we had, with running race fuel and the additional tuning I would expect that we were in the 170-180whp range with it. I would guess that we were about $5k into that motor all said and were running race fuel most of the time mixed 50/50 with 93 pump gas. Now there is some argument that given a lack of a rule book to have to follow (or creatively interpret with plausible cheating) using a good standalone, higher compression pistons, custom intake manifold/individual throttle bodies, you could get past the 200whp mark on pump gas and using a stock block but then the reality is that it wouldn't be an engine that would be any fun in a daily driver.

    As everyone else has said, go with boost, its your friend.
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    Just a guy with a thing for tubeframes and motorswaps...
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  16. #13
    6S Moderator S.Bretz's Avatar
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    ^^^ What he said. It was very peaky and had nothing for low end torque...its had to rap up over 6K before it would come "alive" from what I remember.
    -6S Resident Mechanical Forensics member #001.
    1995 SC2 Turbo 3.6L DOHC, 6sp manual, Ford 8.8 rearend running on MS3x.
    1998 F-250 5.4L triton...stock.

  17. #14
    punkboySL2's Avatar
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    A turbo setup running stock ignition is super fun and pretty reliable as long as it was put together well. Once I had the tune down on mine I didn't have to fuss with it too much. The biggest issue was the quality of the turbo manifold I was running, kept cracking. It was a great car though, drove it everywhere, all year.


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  19. #15
    Get off my lawn.
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    Quote Originally Posted by punkboySL2 View Post
    The biggest issue was the quality of the turbo manifold I was running, kept cracking. It was a great car though, drove it everywhere, all year.
    Honestly, for a low boost setup, it seems the issues/reliability boil down to component quality more than anything else. Rarely do I hear about internal failures. Its too bad all the components available are pretty much shit or non-existent.

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  21. #16
    Lord Freely's Avatar
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    Does anyone here have a supercharger in thier Saturn? I'm considering either a turbo or supercharger. I know you can probably get more power out of a turbo, but as I said before, all I am expecting for this build is a quicker streetcar/dd. I don't want or need a stupid amount of power for no reason. In fact after reading all of these helpful posts, I don't plan on getting my LLO even close to 200whp. I would say the max output I would want is around 150-160 whp. This will most likely be with F/I. I care more about how the car will respond not just raw power. Thanks so far peeps, I didn't think this thread would grow like it did. This is the definition of community!

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  22. #17
    Resident Electromotive Expert importsdontlikeme's Avatar
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    I went the S/C route at first. I strongly recommend a small turbo on the street.

    The S/C was great for auto X (zero lag) but you have to rev it to get the boost to come in. A small turbo will start to spool around 2-2500rpm and makes for a lot more fun on the street. (Especially not having to downshift in 5th gear to pass people at highway speeds)

    A completely stock block can handle 200whp no problem. I would shoot for that.

    150 gets kinda boring after awhile.

    Let's be honest you'll want more once you experience it for awhile haha.


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  23. #18
    siris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Freely View Post
    Does anyone here have a supercharger in thier Saturn? I'm considering either a turbo or supercharger. I know you can probably get more power out of a turbo, but as I said before, all I am expecting for this build is a quicker streetcar/dd. I don't want or need a stupid amount of power for no reason. In fact after reading all of these helpful posts, I don't plan on getting my LLO even close to 200whp. I would say the max output I would want is around 150-160 whp. This will most likely be with F/I. I care more about how the car will respond not just raw power. Thanks so far peeps, I didn't think this thread would grow like it did. This is the definition of community!

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    You will see 200hp on 7lbs with a fuel only tune easy. 200hp in a turd is fun.

    7psi:https://youtu.be/4UUD8mdi1ps

    12psi:https://youtu.be/dn1IYQp1TOc

    Both with a mp2 trans.

    15psi:https://youtu.be/sOfUBEy6J2I
    With a mp3 short gear trans.
    72 Charger: pissed me off, on jackstands.
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  24. #19
    Resident Electromotive Expert importsdontlikeme's Avatar
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    I love how it's pegging rich at 5-6 psi but 15psi it's 13.5 haha bOom


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  25. #20
    siris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by importsdontlikeme View Post
    I love how it's pegging rich at 5-6 psi but 15psi it's 13.5 haha bOom


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    Running out of injector. That was with the aem fic. Never really bothered to try to clean up the low boost fuel, just left it rich to keep from popping the engine.

    At 15psi my duty cycle was 115% lol. No fucks given.
    72 Charger: pissed me off, on jackstands.
    95 SW1m: Dohc swap. DD. I can haz boost?

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