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  1. #21
    Approved Vendor ZombieSatty's Avatar
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    I must not be rough enough on mine. i think I'm on my 2nd and 3rd over the life of the car. It's good to know there are Beefcake 'upgrades' out there.
    It's not my fault, blame the radiation.

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  3. #22

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    Yea

    Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk

  4. #23
    6S Moderator S.Bretz's Avatar
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    I have seen moose knuckles that have rusted out on the bore were the anal bearing is pressed in. If there is not a nice snug fit for the outer race of the perineal area bearing then the new bearing can (and will) wear out prematurely.
    -6S Resident Mechanical Forensics member #001.
    1995 SC2 Turbo 3.6L DOHC, 6sp manual, Ford 8.8 rearend running on MS3x.
    1998 F-250 5.4L triton...stock.

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  6. #24

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    So I'm a little late to the party here.

    1. if using used hub, measure the machine surface where the bearing sits. My experience with these is that the metal is soft enough that if the car bottoms out the suspension the weak link is the hub and it will get peaned down a several thousandths smaller.
    2. Putting the Ion knuckle on the S-Series requires several modifications: the holes for the strut do not line up with the knuckle - this can be fixed by oblonging the strut holes; the strut is not wide enough to fit the Ion knuckle. I resolved this by cutting the inside metal support allowing me to open up the strut to fit inside; lower control arm needs welded for certain - quite a bit of fabrication required I used 5/16" plate; the last item is this suspension will create quite a bit of bump steer - there is a 4th gen F-body adjustable tie rod end that can be used to address that.

    IMG_2279.jpg
    Endurance racing - Saturn style www.facebook.com/mostmintracing

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  8. #25
    Get off my lawn.
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    You have pictures of the welded lower arm?

  9. #26
    Approved Vendor ZombieSatty's Avatar
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    I couldn't figure out what I was looking at, then I turned the phone. The orange thing is a brake duct.

    Did you have a build thread someplace?
    It's not my fault, blame the radiation.

  10. #27
    Get off my lawn.
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    Do they make an extended version of the ION ball joint so you can correct geometry a bit when lowered?

  11. #28
    Approved Vendor ZombieSatty's Avatar
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    Imo, That is one big advantage of this whole ION swapping buisness. That suspension was designed to sit totally differently when loaded. So much so that when unloaded, it looks almost broken. Delta arms are way more level-er when at rest than Scar are. Yea, camber gain may not be as much, but they also have the top strut farther in as well. Ours is damn near vertical.

    As always, take my blabbering with salt.
    It's not my fault, blame the radiation.

  12. #29

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    I owe you guys a build thread.

    IMG_1496a.jpgIMG_1874.jpg
    Endurance racing - Saturn style www.facebook.com/mostmintracing

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  14. #30
    Approved Vendor ZombieSatty's Avatar
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    Yes, yes you do.
    It's not my fault, blame the radiation.

  15. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZombieSatty View Post
    Imo, That is one big advantage of this whole ION swapping buisness. That suspension was designed to sit totally differently when loaded. So much so that when unloaded, it looks almost broken. Delta arms are way more level-er when at rest than Scar are. Yea, camber gain may not be as much, but they also have the top strut farther in as well. Ours is damn near vertical.
    I can tell you that using the Ion knuckle did produce a lot of extra clearance between the wheel and the strut, allowing a bunch of negative camber. On my SC I redrilled the holes at the top of the strut tower to allow more negative camber. I get get static -4 degrees as is - there is more there if I want it.

    Quote Originally Posted by ProDarwin View Post
    Do they make an extended version of the ION ball joint so you can correct geometry a bit when lowered?
    I am not aware of any. This Ion ball joint is quite the Frankenstein in my opinion. The whole shank concept made it hard for me to find an alternative, so the freakish lower control arms were utilized.
    Endurance racing - Saturn style www.facebook.com/mostmintracing

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  17. #32
    Approved Vendor ZombieSatty's Avatar
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    Nice work! Might i ask why you put the ball joint flange on the underside of the LCA? On top would give you more opportunity for camber gain under compression. As we are talking about, ya, ions can kick knuckle over farther.

    GM even made racing knuckles with like 2deg built in.
    It's not my fault, blame the radiation.

  18. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZombieSatty View Post
    Nice work! Might i ask why you put the ball joint flange on the underside of the LCA?
    Thanks. I was copying a design another team had done. My objective was to replace the bearing and hub assembly so no need to put ball joint elsewhere.

    It is a good thought I had not considered. Would the change of location have some kind of bad effect on caster/suspension travel due to connection to sway bar?

    Is it possible to non-destructively disassemble an Ion bearing I want to put better grease in it?
    Endurance racing - Saturn style www.facebook.com/mostmintracing

  19. #34
    Approved Vendor ZombieSatty's Avatar
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    The farther down the LCA swings, the more resting caster you will get, and vise/versa. Loosing caster as bar swings up, untill you hit paralel to line running from swaybar pivot axis to LCA inner joint. Then it would head back but that is a lot of travel, I'm not sure if it's even realistic, id have to look at it again.

    I have to ask, i can't remember if you told us, What's in the engine bay?
    Last edited by ZombieSatty; 02-14-2018 at 12:42 AM.
    It's not my fault, blame the radiation.

  20. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZombieSatty View Post
    I have to ask, i can't remember if you told us, What's in the engine bay?
    Standard Saturn fare - NA 1.9 DOHC with the 5 speed with factory header, custom 1 3/4 downpipe, CAI, stock cams.
    Endurance racing - Saturn style www.facebook.com/mostmintracing

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  22. #36
    Approved Vendor ZombieSatty's Avatar
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    But ion hubs? 4 or 5 lug?
    It's not my fault, blame the radiation.

  23. #37

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    Went with 4 lug hubs that way I could use the same wheels and halfshafts. Having same bolt pattern on front and back makes it easier for tire management during races.
    Endurance racing - Saturn style www.facebook.com/mostmintracing

  24. #38
    Approved Vendor ZombieSatty's Avatar
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    Ions use same splines? I thought we decided they were different and we shared with Lseries?

    Sorry if i should know this.

    ION rear hubs bolt in just like Scar stuff. Top holes of Scar knuckles need half a hole of embiggening or widening.
    It's not my fault, blame the radiation.

  25. #39

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    I can tell you with 100% certainty that if you use large spline S-Series halfshaft (93&up) that they will fit right into the 4 bolt Ion hub. That's what I use.

    I have not looked at the backs yet since why use a 5 bolt pattern? There could be some value there though if the hub is beefier as we were actually able to break the rear hubs on the curbs in the bus stop at Watkins Glen.
    Endurance racing - Saturn style www.facebook.com/mostmintracing

  26. #40
    Get off my lawn.
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    Yes, several people have confirmed spline fitment before. There are some geometry changes for sure, but the pros probably outweigh the cons. Especially endurance racing. Reliability > replacing a knuckle in the middle of a race.

    Also, I think your caster actually increases under compression.

    My 2 big questions would be:

    1) can you get a taller ball joint stud for the ION knuckle to move the control arm back to below parallel again (after lowering)
    2) how different is the steering arm? If its longer, it could make the S series turning circle even worse.

    I need to borrow a CMM arm again to measure the front suspension and really figure out what is going on. Scrub radius is one of the big things I'd like to correct so if I slap a wide, sticky wheel and tire setup on the car it doesn't feel like doo doo.

    As I've mentioned before, the easy button here is to just go ahead and swap the engine, transmission, and cradle at the same time, eliminating most of the 'performance' issues with the S series

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